Vatican Welcomes Traditional Anglicans

Here are excerpts from AOL news:

Catholic Church Makes 'Stunning' Move
By JAMES GRAFF, World Editor, AOL News
posted: 1 HOUR 54 MINUTES AGOcomments: 2953filed under: World News
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(Oct. 20) -- The number of married Catholic priests could grow sharply as the result of the Vatican's epochal decision to welcome thousands of disaffected Anglicans and Episcopalians into the Catholic church.

...

"It's a stunning turn of events," says Lawrence Cunningham, theology professor at Notre Dame University. "This decision will allow for many more married clergy in Western churches, and that's going to raise anew the question, 'If they can do it, why can't the priests of Rome?'" says Cunningham. "I can already picture the electronic slugfest on the Internet in coming days and weeks."
The Catholic church already allows clergymen who convert from Protestant denominations to remain married on a case by case basis, and married priests are common in the Eastern Rite, a group that uses Orthodox traditions but is loyal to Rome.
But the arrangement with the Anglican Communion goes much further. Cardinal William Levada, the Vatican's top doctrinal official, announced in Rome that the church would set up a personal ordinariate -- in essence a diocese defined not by geography, but by function, like the division that serves Catholics in the military -- for converted Anglicans.
The move comes after years of discord within the Anglican Communion, which unites 77 million Anglicans and Episcopalians under the loose authority of the Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams. The church has been racked by schisms over the ordination of women and its stance toward homosexuality.
Some Anglicans believe the Vatican's move will deepen those divisions. "When it comes to elegant funerals, no one can beat the Vatican," wrote commentator Andrew Brown in The Guardian. "The Roman Catholic church is no longer even pretending to take seriously the existence of the Anglican Communion as a coherent body."

For many traditional Episcopalians, as the denomination is known in the U.S., the last straw was the 2003 election of openly gay Gene Robinson as bishop of the Diocese of New Hampshire. In protest, hundreds of churches have broken links with the Episcopal church and declared themselves in line with the conservative Anglican bishops in Africa or South America.
Martyn Minns, the bishop of one such dissident group, the Convocation of Anglicans in North America, said today, "This move by the Catholic church recognizes the reality of the divide within the Anglican Communion and affirms the decision to create a new North American province that embraces biblical truth."
The news is likely to have a particularly strong effect in Great Britain, where there has been a tendency for years for members of the nominally Anglican majority to join the Catholic church, from theologian John Cardinal Newman in the 19th century to former Prime Minister Tony Blair in 2007.
Such conversions have generally meant not only a recognition of the pope's authority, but also a rejection of Anglican traditions. That turning away may no longer be necessary. "Now you can be an Anglican and still be Catholic," says Jo Bailey Wells, director of Anglican Studies at Duke Divinity School. "The Anglicans never had that vote of confidence before."
Indeed, two prominent British priests who publicly broke from Anglicanism years ago stated today that after this ruling from Rome, some Anglicans "will begin to form a caravan, rather like the People of Israel crossing the desert in search of the Promised Land."
Whether that happens or not, today's decision marks a milestone in the relations between the Vatican and the church of England, which King Henry VIII established in 1534 after the pope refused to grant him a marriage annulment. Since then, religious and social battles have often marked relations between Catholics and Anglicans. Says Cunningham: "This would have been unthinkable 200 years ago, and barely imaginable in the 19th century."

(Read more: Here).

Isn't it interesting how one faith group always tries to save another one when the wounds are deep? This can be good in the sense that denominations need to work together---bad in this case because it can be perceived as denominational fishing so to speak. Not only is it denominational fishing---it is also a way of further fossilizing the Traditional Anglicans' ignorance, fear, and bigotry in this case.

Nothing really will change by this decision other than the Roman Catholic Church may or may not gain a few married priests and a few more homophobes. Anyways what are your thoughts?

See also: Shuck and Jive: They Will Know We Are Christians By Our Hate and The Rev's Rumbles: Pope Approves Plan to Bring Anglicans Into the Fold.

Gospel Singer Tonex Comes Out

Here is part of the article from Black Voices:

Tonex: Opening Up About Hysteria Over Homosexuality
Posted by Karu F. Daniels on Sep 25th 2009 8:08AM
Filed under: Music, Interviews, Celeb Updates, Video

Earlier this month, clips of a taped television interview that gospel music sensation Tonex conducted for 'The Lexi Show' (on the Gospel network) surfaced on the Internet and caused a heated frenzy within the black religious industry. During the revealing conversation, the internationally renowned music superstar (nee Anthony Williams III) talked candidly about his homosexuality, his failed marriage and his thoughts on the black church. As expected, when someone touches upon such a taboo subject, it strikes a chord among others. But as the multiple Stellar Award-winning virtuoso tells it, in his very own words, it was a lot more than he ever bargained for. Below is Tonex's exclusive testimony to BlackVoices.com:

Okay, so now since it's really gone mainstream, there is really no backpedaling is there?

After all of the buzz surrounding the Lexi interview, things started spinning out of control. What was said, what wasn't said, and how after you tell the truth even that truth has the propensity to get twisted. However, it's never a crime to face yourself and speak your heart. And you must have heart to tell the world who you are.

I never thought in a million years that I would find the courage to speak so freely about where I am as a human, a man and a child of God. After much soul searching and Bible reading, I had to come to some decisions about myself that I knew weren't going to be the easiest to confront, especially since I was a prominent figure in the religious community and gospel music at large. How would my family deal with this when it aired? And would the content be congruent with what was actually filmed after post production? I have to say that Lexi kept her word about professional journalism, and if people watch all three parts, they will see the totality of what was covered -- not just the sensationalism.

(Read full article: Here).

This is a similar story to Contemporary Christian Singer---Ray Boltz's coming out story from Sept. of last year. He caught mass hysteria from Conservative and Fundamentalist Christians because the man who sang:
---wasn't who they wanted him to be. See: TheoPoetic Musings: Todd Friel's Arrogance About Ray Boltz and Clay Aiken for example. All I have to say is may Tonex and Ray Boltz find peace in the walk with God regardless of what others think and feel about them.



See also: TheoPoetic Musings: Bill Clinton Is Now In Favor Of Same-Sex Marriage.

Kristen Dalton Won Fair And Square

Many in efforts to try to make it seem as if the Miss USA Pageant was somehow rigged and that Miss California was the true winner of the competition try to somehow tie her lost to her personal stand on same-sex marriage. Brannon Howse and his band of Right-Wing nutcases at Worldview Weekend try to brand idiot judge, Perez Hilton with using hate speech. Listen: Here . Brannon Howse of course believes hate crimes are ok as long as they support his views, but when the shoe is on the other foot---he is the loudest to yell hate crime and persecution. Of course, Brannon believes that Miss California supports the traditional and biblical view of marriage---even-though there are several views of marriage within the bible. However, I do believe Perez Hilton is an idiot for his comments about Miss California---even-though, I do not believe in her views---her answer to her question was respectful and not arrogant like fundamentalists:

Miss USA 2009
Hilton served as a judge for the Miss USA 2009 pageant in Las Vegas, Nevada on April 19, 2009. During the Q&A portion of the contest, Hilton's question came to the Miss California representative, Carrie Prejean. Hilton asked:

“Vermont recently became the fourth state to legalize same-sex marriage. Do you think every state should follow suit? Why or why not?”

Prejean responded:

“Well I think it’s great that Americans are able to choose one way or the other. We live in a land where you can choose same-sex marriage or opposite marriage. You know what, in my country, in my family, I do believe that marriage should be between a man and a woman, no offence to anybody out there. But that’s how I was raised and I believe that it should be between a man and a woman. Thank you.”

Here are Kristen's scores which proves she won fair and square:

During the broadcast, viewers were able to follow the judging action during the swimsuit and gown portions of the competition as the judges' aggregate score was displayed. Miss North Carolina USA Kristen Dalton had the highest scores of the contestants in both sections with a 9.198 in swimsuit and a 9.470 in gown.

See also: Miss California and Perez Hilton Act Like a Couple of Pageant Queens. I'm just sorry that this stupidity has taken away from celebrating in the joy of Kristen becoming Miss USA---not just because she's a Wilmington local and a member of FBC-Wilmington, but because she won---she is the best one to represent our country.

Rick Warren's Boo Boo

John Shuck beat me to it: Shuck and Jive: Rev. Rick Warren's Short Memory and Shuck and Jive: Rick Warren Continues to Play the Victim.

But here is the gist of it---

Here's a clip of Rick Warren clearly supporting Proposition 8:

And here's the clip in question from a recent Larry King episode, in which Rick Warren denies ever supporting Proposition 8:


Also here's an article from AOL's Political Machine on Warren's boo boo:

Rick Warren Abandons Fight Against Gay Marriage?
By David Knowles
Apr 8th 2009 9:24AM
Filed Under:eRepublicans, Barack Obama, Featured Stories, Gay Rights

A growing sense of inevitability is rising across America. In the past week alone, an Iowa supreme court decision, a resounding veto-override in the Vermont legislature, and a Washington DC city council measure to recognize gay marriages performed in states that permit the practice, have all essentially reached the same conclusion: Gays and lesbians should be allowed to get married.

While this social issue still has the power to divide people across the country, it seems clear that a paradigmatic shift is underway, and that before long gays will be afforded full marriage rights, and we will look back and wonder what all the fuss was about. Don't believe me? Well, let's consider the recent turnabout by evangelist Rick Warren, who on the Larry King show this week declared "I am not an anti-gay marriage activist."
....
As others have pointed out, Warren broke one of the ten commandments in front of King's audience, because he did "issue a statement" and made an "endorsement" in California's Prop. 8 battle.
....
Warren aside, there are plenty of conservatives, religious or otherwise, who have come to the conclusion that it's time to pack in the fight against gay marriage. In part, this has to do with a simple revelation.

The next generation overwhelmingly supports the expansion of gay rights. Many Democrats, too, who, like President Obama, have waffled over whether civil unions are an adequate substitute for marriage are suddenly seeing the light. Here's Iowa State Senate Majority Leader Mike Gronstal taking a stand and refusing to co-sponsor legislation to attempt to ban gay marriage.

And here is what Right Wing nutcase Ingrid Schlueter of Worldview Weekend has to say about Warren's boo boo:

In Warren's Own Words: "I'm Not an Anti-Gay or an Anti-Gay Marriage Activist....I am interested in what the recession is doing to the spiritual climate of our nation."
Posted: 04/08/09
Apr 08 by Ingrid Schlueter

Here is Rick Warren in his own words. What Rick Warren thinks or doesn't think about homosexual marriage doesn't amount to a hill of beans. The real issue is whether God is anti-gay marriage, and those who read the Scriptures are well aware that God has spoken for all time in His Word on homosexuality.

"Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind:it is abomination."

–Leviticus 18:22

"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

–I Corinthians 6:9-11

"For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another,men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error."

Yes, I get this crap in my email box, because when I took their Worldview test, I scored Secular Humanist, because I don't bow down and worship capitalist materialism and the Republican party like them. Anyways, don't you just love how much homophobes bring up Leviticus. Ironically though even-though I've stated over and over again here that I'm pro same-sex marriage and against Proposition Hate, I've been labeled a homophobe and bigot by Bigotry Blogs | Sanctity Of Bigotry | Steve's Web Hosting.

More On Same-Sex Marriage

Elderly Gay Couple Regrets Not Marrying
AOL
posted: 9 DAYS 14 HOURS AGOcomments: 2930filed under: National NewsPrintShareText SizeAAA

(March 6) - It was 1951 when they fell in love. They've been together every since. And now, Bob Claunch and Jack Reavley are wondering whether they made a mistake by not getting married when they had the chance. The two met in the Army, where Reavley was Claunch's commanding officer, the Los Angeles Times reported. For years, they had to conceal their relationship for fear of being court-martialed. Eventually, both men received honorable discharges.
Today, Claunch, 83, and Reavley, 85, live together in Los Angeles. They are registered domestic partners in California. When same-sex marriage was legalized in California, they decided not to go for it.
"I know that we've been together a long time," Claunch told the Times, "but the idea of cementing this relationship seems unnecessary."
But now, they are starting to wonder: What happens to the survivor if one of them dies? Without a marriage license, they lack some fundamental rights.
But in November, California voters approved Proposition 8, which banned gay marriage. The state Supreme Court is considering the constitutionality of the measure. Claunch and Reavley say that if they get another chance, they will get married -- although something in their background still makes them hesitate.
"I suppose it's because for so many, many, many years and centuries, men have not married men, and women have not married women," Claunch said. "We've been brought up not having anything like that, not wanting anything like that … We've always been given the impression that it was a horrible kind of situation, and it is not easy to cross over that line."
....
And you can learn more about the couple’s long romance through filmmaker Stu Maddux’s 2006 documentary, ‘Bob and Jack’s 52-Year Adventure.’

2009 AOL LLC. All Rights Reserved.
2009-03-06 22:30:54

See also: Yahoo! News: Gay Marriage, Is Sean Penn right about gay marriage?, 16,000 Reasons to Vote No on CA Proposition 8, where I found this video:

Also see: Is Controlling Anti-LGBTQ Sentiment One Of Our Primary Jobs? and blah blah blah: The Church, Homosexuality, and Texts That Divide: How Corporate Reflection of Scriptures Could Change Our Sexual Ethics.

Kirk Cameron's Homophobic Rant

Read the comments to the video: here.


Here's a parody of homophobe Dr. Laura on The West Wing:



See also: Cafeteria Christianity: Picking & Choosing, where I found this video:

"Prop 8 - The Musical" starring Jack Black, John C. Reilly, and many more... from Jack Black

And: Exploring Our Matrix: Sunday School: Homosexuality, Genesis 19 and Judges 19.

Fundamentalist Wackiness In Overdrive

FBC-Decatur

First, here's a post from Dr. Jonas' Blog:

Good for Decatur FBC!
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution has an article about FBC Decatur and its pastor, Rev. Julie Pennington-Russell. She was selected as the church's first ever female pastor last year. Furthermore, the church, with 2700 members is the largest Baptist church in the South to be headed by a female pastor.

Her presence as pastor of such a prominent Georgia Baptist church has been a thorn in the flesh to the Fundamentalists who control both the SBC and the Georgia Baptist Convention. So, it remains to be seen what action, if any both entities will take toward FBC Decatur. Knowing Fundamentalists as I do, I suspect both entities will seek some kind of "punitive" action toward the church. After all, they can't possibly be seen cooperating with a church that (in their twisted way of thinking) so violates the letter of scripture!

The article can be found at this link:
http://www.ajc.com/services/content/living/stories/2008/11/23/decatur_first_baptist.html

The best quote in the article is this: "If they would like to ask us to leave the Southern Baptist Convention, I think that’s fine,” Roper said. “I think our new minister is wonderful.”

Good for you Ms. Roper! And good for you all FBC Decatur! What a wonderful example to the rest of the Baptist world!

posted by glenn jonas at 1:14 pm

Rev. Julie Pennington-Russell recently became one of my Facebook friend by way of my Blog I guess as I already posted this: TheoPoetic Musings: Georgia Baptist Convention Says No To Female Pastors on the situation. Anyways, I agree with Dr. Jonas' assessment: "Knowing Fundamentalists as I do, I suspect both entities will seek some kind of "punitive" action toward the church. After all, they can't possibly be seen cooperating with a church that (in their twisted way of thinking) so violates the letter of scripture!" It's just like those who say homosexuality just can't be in the church but at the same time hypocritically welcome and accept with full fellowship military personnel who murder for a living and serve the Roman god of war, Mars---otherwise known nowadays as: "collateral damage." The God of the New Testament is not the false god of war, but Jesus Christ who is called: "the Prince of Peace." Now, don't think that I'm bagging on the military as I respect them and the Grace of God found in Jesus Christ is for both the military and homosexuals---I am just making a point about fundamentalist hypocrisy.

Anyways, all you homophobic bible literalist fundamentalists, here are ways in which homosexuality already plays an important role in church life: consider King James who was openly bisexual. Here is what one of your fellow fundamentalists, Gary Bauer, has to say about the subject:

Used too often as a controlling device and not enough as a spiritual compass, the Bible becomes a tool to promulgate moral and political agendas. For example, in 1998, the right-wing Christian groups -the Family Research Council, the Christian Coalition, and Americans for Truth About Homosexuality- ordered all its members to cease using the King James Version of the Bible because historians had proven that King James I of England, who was also known as James VI of Scotland, was indisputably gay.

Should the King James Version of the Bible, which has been around since 1611 and used worldwide, be discarded solely on the bases of King James' sexual orientation?

Speaking at a press conference about this controversy, Gary Bauer of the Family Research Council said, "I feel uncomfortable that good Christians all over America, and indeed the world, are using a document commissioned by a homosexual. Anything that has been commissioned by a homosexual has obviously been tainted in some way."

See also: Queen James and North Carolina Baptists and King James' Homoerotic Letters. Also, consider the heart-wrenching and soul uplifting church music by homosexual composer, Samuel Barber:
---Mister Rogers' favorite composer. And last but not least consider: that was painted by Michelangelo who had numerous homosexual affairs it is believed. In fundamentalists' twisted theology, these things would be considered condoning "unacceptable behavior" and they have the gall to say God doesn't accept females and homosexuals into full inclusive fellowship into the church---but he does accept militarists with all the death and destruction they bring such as:---because voting straight ticket for ultra-conservative Right-Wing nutcases makes one such a "good Christian." I know though that Jesus accepts heterosexual females such as: Rev. Julie Pennington-Russell and heterosexual males such as: Dr. Jonas, Mr. Rogers and myself as well as homosexuals and soldiers and God uses all of them for His/Her purpose, so get use to it.

SBC Calls Roman Catholic Church A Cult

Check out Big Daddy Weave's post on the subject: A Southern Baptist War on the Catholic Church "Cult". Here is a snippet from that post:

Meet Jim Smyrl

Jim Smyrl is the "Executive-Pastor of Education" at the 28,000-member First Baptist Church of Jacksonville, Florida. FBC Jacksonville is the third-largest church in the Southern Baptist Convention and one of the largest megachurches in America. As Executive -Pastor of Education, Smyrl is no lowly staff member. He's been dubbed "Second in Command" at FBC as Pastor Mac Brunson's "right-hand man."

Over on the Official Blog of FBC Jacksonville, has announced a series of upcoming posts on the "Catholic Cult."

Fundamentalist nutcase John MacArthur would be proud---here are a few of his anti-Catholic statements: PowerBlog!: John MacArthur - Grace to Who?, A GRACE COMMUNITY CHURCH DISTINCTIVE and ---go here for the rest of the video series---for example. Also, Joe Blackmon's comment on Big Daddy Weave's post is telling:

joe blackmon said...
Big Daddy Weave

I haven't got the slightest interest in "top down" organization within the SBC as you assert. I worry about only one church--the one I attend. As long as the SBC publically affirms what I believe, I am perfectly happpy to remain in the SBC. Hopefully, the natioanl convention will take a cue from the wise people in Georgia and disfellowship so-called Southern Baptist churches who have unbiblical practices like FBC Decatur.

2nd of all, anyone who associates with a church that affirms homosexuality as moral, abortion as a legal right, and women pastors as godly is NOT a conservative. Furthermore, they are either *a* not a Christian at all or *b* immature and ignorant.

I also notice that you failed to respond to my point that Catholic doctrine is completely without any biblical support. Therefore, since what they teach is unbiblical they are a cult. Their size is completely irrelevant. The Mormon church has a huge number of followers. That doesn't make them Christians.

I wonder why you failed to address that part of my comment in your diatribe. Oh, I know. It's because you can't.

5:12 AM

The only cultists I see are those that worship the false manmade paper and leather god, the bible.

It's Time: Week 8---A Baptist Witness That Dissents On Manichaeistic Fundamentalism

Week 8 was suppose to be about Baptist heritage and Dr. Queen's sermon was of course, but in Sunday School, we had a bombardment of Anti-Baptist Neo-Manichaeistic Fundamentalist Dualism. I've never heard so much rampant Neo-Manichaeism in a church setting in person before except for a few times in small groups, maybe, but wow what antithetical Baptist thinking. Our teacher said one can't follow "secular" humanism and Christianity at the same time implying an us vs. them, absolute black and white, either/or mentality. I would like to know if he'd say that to the Reformers---most of whom followed in part some form of humanism blended with Christianity such as: Erasmus and one of my ancestors, George Buchanan. Anyways, here are some more thoughts on the Neo-Manichaeism of Fundamentalism:
First, here is the Fundamentalist Project's "definition of fundamentalism (which) has nine sections, five
related to the fundamentalist ideology, and four to the groups’ organization":

1) Reactivity to the marginalization of religion. Fundamentalist movements are “concerned first with the erosion of religion and its role in society”, and they therefore protect “some religious content, some set of traditional cosmological beliefs and associated norms of conduct”.#--- (#= This and the following quotations are from Gabriel A. Almond, Emmanuel Sivan and R. Scott Appleby, “Fundamentalism: Genus and Species”, in Martin E. Marty and R. Scott Appleby, eds., Fundamentalisms Comprehended, Chicago, The University of Chicago Press., 1995, pp. 399-424)
2) Selectivity. Fundamentalism is not merely defensive of the tradition, but “selects and reshapes aspects” of it, that differentiate fundamentalist ideology from the religious mainstream. Similarly, fundamentalists accept some sides of modernity (particularly its technological and organizational features), but refuse others (mainly the ideological
underpinnings of modernity, such as relativism, secularism, and pluralism), some of which are singled out “for special attention, usually in the form of focused opposition”.
3) Moral manicheism. The fundamentalist worldview considers reality to be “uncompromisingly divided into light [...] and darkness[...]. The world outside the group is therefore contaminated, sinful, doomed; the world inside is a pure and redeemed ‘remnant’”.
4) Absolutism and inerrancy. Fundamentalists share a belief in the inerrancy of their sacred texts, “or its analogues (e.g., papal infallibility, a privileged school of Islamic jurisprudence, etc.)”; with a recognizable approach to sacred sources, which opposes the hermeneutical methods.
5) Millennialism and messianism. In their view, history has a miraculous culmination, when “the good will triumph over evil”; and “the end of days, preceded by trials and tribulations, will be ushered in by the Messiah, the Savior; the Hidden Imam”.
6) Elect, chosen membership. The militants of the fundamentalist groups tend to consider their membership as “‘elect’, chosen, divinely called”.
7) Sharp boundaries. Among fundamentalist movements is widespread the idea of a separation between the faithful and the sinful, with the notion “of a dividing wall and other spatial metaphors”. The separation can be
physical, or “implemented through audiovisual boundaries, through a distinctive vocabulary, and through control over access to the media”.
8) Authoritarian organization. Although membership is voluntary, with frequent trends towards equalitarianism, “the typical form of fundamentalism organization is charismatic, a leader-follower relationship”. The tension between these two features makes movements sometimes fragile. Moreover, “since there can be no loyal opposition, there is a tendency toward fragmentation”.
9) Behavioral requirements. “The member’s time, space, and activity are a group resource, not an individual one”. In order to create “a powerful affective dimension, an imitative, conforming dimension”, groups thus have “distinctive music, [...] rules for dress [...] drinking, sexuality, appropriate speech, and the discipline of children”, with censorship of reading and audio-visual material.

How Right-Wing Conservatives are Manichaeistic:

Although the neo-conservatives are secular (and oftentimes quite liberal in their social outlook) and the religious right is theologically-based, these two currents share a number of ideas:

both currents are Manicheistic, i.e., they see the world in absolute black and white, good and evil;

both currents define the forces of good as being led by the U.S. and Israel and see the forces of evil (once defined as the Soviet Union and now see as "the axis of evil" states supporting terror) as including Arabs and Islam;

both currents are confrontational and uncompromising. They believe that there can be no accommodation made with those representing evil. Both, therefore, seek confrontation and conflict, not a resolution of tensions through negotiations; and

both currents are absolutist, since their ideology will allow only for total victory.

Also, Rich Mullins had this to say about the Manichaeism of Fundamentalism: "Everything is spiritual. Which is another hang-up I have with Protestantism, and even more specifically with Evangelicalism. It’s more like Manicheism than anything else. This dualistic system that says that everything physical is evil, and the only good things are spiritual things. And I go, ‘Wow! John wrote a good bit of what he wrote to counter that kind of thinking.’ And yet, all these Bible-believing, Bible-thumping born-again-ers are going around professing the very thing that John tried to put out." (Brendt Waters, interview with Rich Mullins, conducted in April 1996). See also: A Comparison between Manichean & Christian Views of Evil, Persian philosophy and Manichean Texts. Also, it is interesting how fundies always reduce everything to issues of sexuality and compromising morality---even issues, which aren’t sexual in nature are rooted in sexual rhetoric---ie. Sins of the flesh, flesh-nature, etc.---which is part of the reason Fundamentalism promotes a semi-docetic/Manichaean view of humanity.

Next we were told that "secular humanists" were trying to convince Christians that homophobia is wrong and abortion in any case is right and that we should always stand against homosexuality and abortion in all cases as well as pray for adulterers. First of all, it's anti-Baptist to coerce people in matters of conscience as freedom is one of the most cherished tenets of Baptist distinctives. Secondly, homosexuality is most certainly not wrong, but homophobia is even within a Christian context---see: Homosexuality . Thirdly, abortion is debatable as opinions within a Christian framework have changed over time. Consider Saint Thomas Aquinas who supported and defended abortion in every case---so for all the clamor of the Roman Catholic Church’s support and defense of an Absolute Unchanging Morality---Catholic theological opinions seemed to have changed over the years over this so called “Absolute Unchanging Morality.” (See Aquinas on human ensoulment for a counter argument). Also within an uncontextual literalistic and legalistic vacuum in which Fundamentalists read the bible, abortion is permissible as God decreed abortion as per these verses and God's decrees are eternal in a Traditional understanding of God's attributes:

Numbers 31:17
English Revised Version
Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. (Murder of possible pregnant women= infanticide or feticide)

Hosea 13:16GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
The people of Samaria are guilty as charged because they rebelled against their God. They will be killed in war, their children will be smashed to death, and their pregnant women will be ripped open. (abortion)

Psalm 137:9 (Douay-Rheims Bible)
Blessed be he that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. (infanticide)---for example.

See also: Why Abortion is Biblical ---my view is here: TheoPoetic Musings: A THEOLOGICAL DECLARATION AND 95 THESES FOR BAPTIST PROGRESSION. It is interesting to note how anti-abortionist Fundamentalists use Deuteronomy 5:16 to condemn abortion but support capital punishment and war. It's interesting how all the issues mentioned yesterday in Sunday School were sexual in nature, but no calls to stand against the capitalist materialism of Right-Wing Conservatives or to stand against war as Jesus and the Early Church did as for example:

Tatians(164)

You wish (to) make war, and you take Apollo as a counsellor of slaughter. You want to carry off a maiden by force, and you select a divinity to be your accomplice. You are ill by your own fault; and, as Agamemnon wished for ten councillors, so you wish to have gods with you. Some woman by drinking water gets into a frenzy, and loses her senses by the fumes of frankincense, and you say that she has the gift of prophecy. Apollo was a prognosticator and a teacher of soothsayers: in the matter of Daphne he deceived himself. An oak, forsooth, is oracular, and birds utter presages! And so you are inferior to animals and plants! It would surely be a fine thing for you to become a divining rod, or to assume the wings of a bird! He who makes you fond of money also foretells your getting rich; he who excites to seditions and wars also predicts victory in war. If you are superior to the passions, you will despise all worldly things. Do not abhor us who have made this attainment, but, repudiating the demons, follow the one God. "All things were made by Him, and without Him not one thing was made." If there is poison in natural productions, this has supervened through our sinfulness. I am able to show the perfect truth of these things; only do you hearken, and he who believes will understand. I do not want to be a king: I do not wish to be rich: I decline military service: I hate fornication. (Cadoux, pg 103)

Justin Martyr (d. 165)
writings (153‑160?) martyred

And when you hear that we look for a kingdom, you suppose, without making any inquiry, that we speak of a human kingdom; whereas we speak of that which is with God, as appears also from the confession of their faith made by those who are charged with being Christians, though they know that death is the punishment awarded to him who so confesses. For if we looked for a human kingdom, we should also deny our Christ, that we might not be slain; and we should strive to escape detection, that we might obtain what we expect. But since our thoughts are not fixed on the present, we are not concerned when men cut us off; since also death is a debt which must at all events be paid. (I Apology, 11) And when the Spirit of prophecy speaks as predicting things that are to come to pass, He speaks in this way: "For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And He shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people; and they shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruning‑hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more." And that it did so come to pass, we can convince you. For from Jerusalem there went out into the world, men, twelve in number, and these illiterate, of no ability in speaking: but by the power of God they proclaimed to every race of men that they were sent by Christ to teach to all the word of God; and we who formerly used to murder one another do not only now refrain from making war upon our enemies, but also, that we may not lie nor deceive our examiners, willingly die confessing Christ.

And:
Athenagoras
'Legatio pro Christianis & De Resurrectione (177‑180)

For the robber, or ruler, or tyrant, who has unjustly put to death myriads on myriads, could not by one death make restitution for these deeds; and the man who holds no true opinion concerning God, but lives in all outrage and blasphemy, despises divine things, breaks the laws, commits outrage against boys and women alike, razes cities unjustly, burns houses with their inhabitants, and devastates a country, and at the same time destroys inhabitants of cities and peoples, and even an entire nation‑‑how in a mortal body could he endure a penalty adequate to these crimes, since death prevents the deserved punishment, and the mortal nature does not suffice for any single one of his deeds? It is proved, therefore, that neither in the present life is there a judgment according to men's deserts, nor after death. (The Resurrection of the dead, 19) How, then, when we do not even look on, lest we should contract guilt and pollution, can we put people to death? And when we say that those women who use drugs to bring on abortion commit murder, and will have to give an account to God s for the abortion, on what principle should we commit murder? For it does not belong to the same person to regard the very foetus in the womb as a created being, and therefore an object of God's care, and when it has passed into life, to kill it. (A Plea for the Christians, 35)

Anyways as a Baptist, I should have dissented on the opinions professed in Sunday School yesterday, so here I just did.